Sunday, March 25, 2007

Insubordination

We had a blue shirt ask us a question about "insubordination"


At what point is insubordination reached?

Are Sgts reluctant/afraid to demand the respect of the rank?

Have witnessed what I would call insubordination on several occasions in the last few years. They all seem to have the conclusion.....nothing. There has to be consequences to those actions.

I guess it started when Lt's and Captains started allowing the Blue shirts to hang out in the W/C's office.

I remember that the worst call to get on the radio was "Go in and see the Watch Commander".


Any sergeants or above wish to comment?

15 comments:

Anonymous said...

You summed it up.

As soon as they started requiring college education to get on the job you eliminated a lot of guys who valued the job. They came from hard jobs and realized how good of a job being a police officer is.

Also, unfortunately, most of the females on this job are worthless. I've seen many a 10-1 started by a female that couldn't cash the check she was writing with her mouth.

All in all, I'm glad I came on in the 80's when we could be the police. CAPS has made us a bunch of capons out here at the whim of community leaders and politicians.

Thirty years and eleven as sarge... said...

I'll be happy to comment on it. In theory, it is when an honest disagreement descends into a personal attack or threat against a ranking officer. What should happen is the obtaining of a CR # naming the accused subordinate. In the old days that would have been the end of it. Because, in the old days, supervisors apparently had more testosterone because they knew other supervisors "had their back". If a subordinate kept up with his/her bs, it was after they had thought twice about it. Why, you ask? Because they knew that every other supervisor out there would be happy to "supervise" them appropriately. Nothing concocted; everything "by the book." What also can happen now is that the subordinate obtains a purely retributory CR # against the supervisor containing slander and lies, follow it up with an EEOC beef and a Federal lawsuit, all the while safe in the knowledge that not another supervisor will dare touch him/her because they are the new and apparently gutless breed. I'll stop here because....well, just because. Stay safe.

Anonymous said...

I didnt think anyone would touch this thread.

Does the silence translate into a tacit admission that sgts/lts are unwilling to take this type of action? OR is SSSarge sitting on this thread? LOL I guess it really doesnt matter. Ive had the priviledge of working for some of the finest Sgts, and some of the "proclaimation not examination"/clout sgts that were just doing the time to fill in a line on the resume.

Thanks for the space to vent

Signed
The blue shirt who can look in the mirror at the end of a tour with a clear conscience and say I did a good job today.

Anonymous said...

When the percentage of members having served in the military was higher, insubordination was lower. Now the entiltement generation believes they can challange even the simpelest request.
Solution: beat your children

Anonymous said...

I have been on the job for 14 years. I have worked with some great Sergeants and have worked with some dog-ass Sergeants(merit).The same could be said of the PO's.I have observed that nowadays,some PO's question any simple order or assignment.This is the Chicago Police Department,not some debating society.The whining and bitching is hilarious and ironic because the whiners are usually the clout babies in our district.They go running to the W/C to beef.We have a old-school Captain and word has gotten around to the whiners not to bother him with this BS.

Anonymous said...

I get sick of the line college education ruined this or ir ruined that. You think that people who have a college education do not value this job? Do you think that people who have gotten a college education never work in a "hard job" before or in order to get that college education?

Just like you would not want some one to say every old timer is a dog and a bitcher, stop blaming shit on people who worked their ass of to obtain a college education and are working their ass of as a PO to pay of their student loans that they needed for that college education.

As far as "it is when an honest disagreement descends into a personal attack or threat against a ranking officer." I have been in a discussion with a sgt and he is the one who then descends into a personal attack against me and then throws out the line of "you do not want to continue this dicussion or I will have charges of insubordination put on you"

Just because one has the stripes on their arms does not mean the are God and end all be all in everything. Some feel when an error is brought to their attention by a lowely PO that they in turn have to flex their muscle as a supervisor and try to belittle that person.

Unlike this department shit should not always roll down hill, there are times when it need to go up

Anonymous said...

When the percentage of members having served in the military was higher, insubordination was lower. Now the entitlement generation believes they can challenge even the simplest request.
Solution: beat your children

****************************

That's the same pool the supervision is drawn from. No balls and merit make for no respect. I was in the military for 4 years and have 20 on the job (12+ as a det). When I came on I automatically had respect for rank. That is long since gone, erased by supervision itself. Messed up scenes, lack of knowledge about G.O.'s, trying to wet their manhood with the female P.O.'s, etc.; and that's just what I see in patrol. I won't even start on the poitical hacks we've been fed in the "D" the last 4 years. It all strangely coincides with Clines rise to Chief of Det's and Super. Rank buys compliance not respect. Respect is earned. I don't doubt that good Sgt's & Lt's are caught up in the general disdain in the rank & file. Only you can change that perception one Sgt at a time. Decide whether you want to be a Sergeant of Police or some D-3 hack. Personally, if you are a stand up leader, I think you have the worst job on this dept. I wouldn't put up with your job any amount of money. Unfortunately that only applies to a small percentage of you. And before you rip me, I am not some know it all det., I am quite aware of my failings. That is not one of them.

Anonymous said...

I am not a white shirt and seeing how you guys are treated would not care to be one. I am officially in the KMA club and saddened to see this department go to hell.

I remember when Sgt were respected (and I still do). You all need to get that back. Don't be everyones buddy. Your name is Sgt or boss. Dont become to familiar with the enemy or they will walk all over you . Supervise these morons. And when someone refuses a direct order.... Please Write them up.

Anonymous said...

Mon Mar 26, 01:15:00 PM

Some of your points about education are valid, but your wrong about arguing with supervisors.
I have had some dumb arrogant bosses, but I always followed their orders as long as they weren't criminal. Without that discipline, the whole organization falls apart. Because everyone from the smartest and most hardworking to the lazy dog has an opinion and there is always someone who will want to get into it with the boss.That just leads to chaos and a lack of uniform resolve. In a critical situation, how is a boss supposed to give orders and expect them to be followed if everyone is allowed to argue with him/her. This is not corporate America or some new age hippie commune, this is serious life and death business (at times).

Anonymous said...

I have to agree that merit promotions are a huge part of the lack of discipline. The way the city has hid the merit promotion process combined with the way they have abused the living shit out of it, the regular blue shirt has no idea if the white shirt he is relying on got his position by earning it or dropping a proverbial knee to the higher-ups.

Respect has to be earned. I feel I have earned it with the people I have supervised. Unfortunately, I have to deal with other supervisors who have no clue. The worst are the merit supervisors who actually believe their own myth and think they deserve what they got. Sad.

Anonymous said...

Mon Mar 26, 01:15:00 PM

I rest my case

Anonymous said...

When you have veteran P.O.'s who can protect a scene and conduct an investigation properly and an idiot Sgt, Lt, or Capt. starts fucking with you because they have the rank and not the Know how, that is a problem! When a supervisor has to say "I'm the Captain" then he really isn't!
When our bosses are more worried about overtime than a proper investigation and paper trail there is a problem!
INSUBORDINATION from a knowledgable PO's perspective is a "merit" supervisor trying to control things he doesn't understand or hasn't dealt with before.
Respect is earned by the Supervisor and his knowledge of policy and procedure not granted by stripes or bars to those who don't know how!

Anonymous said...

What do you expect when they teach recruits how to obtain CR#'s in the academy?

Anonymous said...

To: Tue Mar 27, 12:42:00 PM

I am not talking about following orders or getting in an arguement. I am talking about an adult conversation at normal tones. I do not care if you are in the CPD, Military, or Corp world when something is wrong you have the obligation to bring that wrong to attention. I am not talking about yelling, calling someone stupid, or anything else. I am talking about a civil conversation between adults. If a Supervisor can not admit they are wrong or misled on a point then there is no way in hell someone should follow them. How can I trust someone when they think they they are always right? No person in this world is correct 100% of the time. The smartest people and I am not talking IQ, job title, or rank are the ones you can learn from their mistakes and who can learn from others who might have a little more knowledge in a certain aspect then themselves.

As for Tue Mar 27, 06:15:00 PM
You "rest your case" on what? Please explain

Anonymous said...

we sgts have lost it when u work in a district where the Capt lets the blue shirt leap frog over you -theres little respect for your rank- I agree write them up get the number its documented and let the capt come rescue their boys/girls. Then you have them on paper disagreeing with a Sgt.

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that can and is read by people other than Chicago Police Officers.